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  Interview: Alexander Downer July 25, 2004 Reporter : Laurie Oakes  Foreign Minister Alexander Downer has had another busy week. There was the UN vote where Australia sided with just six other countries to vote against the resolution asking for the Israeli wall to be torn down. There was the release of the Flood report into Australia's handling of information leading up to the Iraqi war, as well as the tabling of the 9/11 report in the US. Laurie Oakes is talking to Mr Downer on these and other issues ...Transcript JANA WENDT: A decision brought down by Indonesia's highest court on Friday could become a nightmare for many Australian families. It ruled that the law under which more than 30 Bali bombers were jailed, and some sentenced to death, was invalid because it was passed after they committed the crime. It's now possible that survivors of the bombings, and relatives of the 88 Australians killed may have to go through the trauma of the trials all over again. Well, we're joined now from Adelaide by Foreign Minister Alexander Downer to talk with Sunday's political editor Laurie Oakes. Good morning, Laurie. LAURIE OAKES: Good morning, Jana. Mr Downer, welcome to the programme. FOREIGN MINISTER ALEXANDER DOWNER: Thank you, Laurie. LAURIE OAKES: What's your latest information from Indonesia about the Bali bombers? Are you confident they'll stay in jail? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, I am confident that they'll stay in jail, but - and that the sentences will be seen through. But nevertheless we do have to face up to the fact that there is some legal ambiguity here following the constitutional court's advisory opinion in relation to one particular case. But the Chief Justice of the Constitutional Court says in a statement yesterday that the Bali bombers won't be released from jail as a result of this decision. That's obviously encouraging. The Indonesian officials who we've been talking to share our absolute determination that the sentences that have already been handed down be carried through. So we will continue to work very energetically with the Indonesians to make sure that the sentences aren't overturned and these people aren't released into the community. LAURIE OAKES: So you don't believe that the families of the Bali bombing victims will have to go through the trauma of new trials? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well obviously I dearly hope they won't have to, because as Jana was saying in the introduction that would be very dramatic for them. It'd be traumatic for them, and we very much hope that the current sentences will stand - convictions and sentences will stand. And the indications are that that is likely, but we can't be 100 per cent certain at this stage, but it is likely that the sentences will stand, and the - and these people will remain in prison. LAURIE OAKES: Before the trials began were you warned by your Department or Attorney-General's that there was ambiguity, that the Indonesian High Court could overturn retrospective legislation? ALEXANDER DOWNER: No. This isn't the High Court, though. This is the constitutional court. LAURIE OAKES: Yup. ALEXANDER DOWNER: And this is a new institution, so we don't have a great deal of information. Particularly what we don't have is precedent about what rulings of the Constitutional Court will mean in other courts. So in this particular case there's a ruling by the Constitutional Court, but the appeal itself is being heard in the Bali High Court. So this information coming from the ruling of the Constitutional Court will be passed to the Bali High Court, and they'll do whatever they wish with that advisory opinion of the Constitutional Court. LAURIE OAKES: There's a new threat to Australia overnight from a group claiming to be the European arm of al Qa'eda. How seriously are you taking that? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, we take all threats seriously. This - this group, the Islamic Tawhid group, isn't a group that we're familiar with. But nevertheless it's a threat. It's on the Internet. We take it seriously. And what it does is it reminds us that we have to be absolutely determined in the face of the threats of terrorists to make sure that we don't give in to those threats. The problem here is that the - at the time of the Spanish election the Spanish began the process of withdrawing their troops. More recently the Filipinos have withdrawn their troops in the face of a terrorist threat. Unfortunately these actions have encouraged terrorists to continue these threats, so now we are subjected, as the Italians are, and the Poles and the Bulgarians, from this particular group, to further threats, and it's very important we send a strong message that we will not be threatened by terrorist groups. Terrorist groups will not determine the policy of the Australian Government or the Australian people. LAURIE OAKES: It was pretty ominous sounding, though. The group says that if Australian troops are not withdrawn from Iraq, quote, "we will shake the ground beneath your feet as we did in Indonesia, and columns of rigged cars will not stop". ALEXANDER DOWNER: The worst thing Australian - the Australian Government, or Australians generally can do, is to accede to the demands of these sorts of terrorist organisations. If we start caving in to terrorists and withdrawing our troops, because terrorists demand that we should withdraw our troops, then our foreign policy, our international relationships, will be determined by terrorists. And in future we'll leave ourselves very vulnerable to further demands from terrorists. This is a problem with the Filipino decision, you see. They've - they've acceded to the demands of terrorists, and within a day or so of the Filipinos doing that, six more people were taken hostage in Iraq. You have to stand up to these people, because if you don't you empower them. LAURIE OAKES: Does this increase the pressure on the Government, though, to send armed guards to protect our Olympians in Athens? ALEXANDER DOWNER: No. I don't think so. We'll just keep assessing the situation in Athens, and if we get information that we need to reinforce what is already being done in Athens, well then we'll approach the Greek authorities to see whether they'll accede to a request for armed guards to be send by Australia. But at this stage we're not proposing to do that. But we do assess the security situation day by day. LAURIE OAKES: The East Timor Foreign Minister Jose Ramos Horta says his country is one of the most vulnerable to terrorist infiltration, and he wants Australia's help to deal with that. What are we going to do for them? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, we are providing help to them. Obviously we do have some peace keepers there in East Timor. We're providing, very importantly, or helping to provide, training for the East Timor police. My view is that up until a few months ago not enough was being done by the international community to support the development of a much more effective East Timor police force, but we, and I think the Portuguese, are putting a lot more effort now into helping train the East Timor police. So we're also having discussions with them about enhancing their intelligence capability. So we'll do what we can to help them. LAURIE OAKES: On the subject of East Timor, it looks as though the Labor Party's pulled the rug out from under the Government's feet on negotiations over natural gas and a new maritime border. Is that the case? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, we had bipartisan support for Australia's negotiating position up until last week, when Mr Latham suddenly and rather unexpectedly came out and said that Labor would restart the negotiations with the East Timorese, and it would recommence the negotiations with the East Timorese if Labor were to win the election. Well, we're in the middle of a very delicate and a very difficult negotiation. We've got the next round of the negotiations scheduled for September. If Labor is going to restart all of the negotiations from scratch, as Mr Latham has said, then there's barely any point in going ahead with this next round of negotiations in September. This comes at a very bad time, but ... LAURIE OAKES: So will it be suspended? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, it could be suspended, yes. That's obviously something we'll have to consider. There won't be any point in going ahead with the negotiations if Labor is going to restart the negotiations after the election. This comes at a very bad time, because these negotiations are very delicate and difficult negotiations. Look, I am very happy to make sure Mr Latham is briefed on this issue so he can reconsider what he said last week. But just sort of jumping into the media and saying you'll restart and recommence negotiations at a very delicate stage in these negotiations, without briefing on where we're at in the negotiations, is an extremely unwise thing to have done. But we're happy to give Mr Latham a briefing so that he can reconsider his position. LAURIE OAKES: Well, the Labor Party says it would offer the East Timorese a more generous share of oil and gas royalties from the Timor Sea. Now, given how poor East Timor is, is there anything wrong with a rich country like Australia making a generous gesture like that? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well there are two things to say about that. First of all, we've already given the East Timorese 90 per cent of the revenue - Government revenue - from the joint development area, where before Australia and Indonesia used to share that revenue 50-50, we now share it with East Timor 10-90, giving East Timor 90 per cent. Now, we're in the process, at a very delicate stage of negotiations over whether anything else can be done to assist the East Timorese. And in lurches Mr Latham, saying that he wants to restart and recommence the negotiations, and his spokesman then comes out and says, "Oh, by the way, we're going to - if Labor is elected we'll concede an enormous amount of ground to the East Timorese". Now, I'm not saying publicly what offers we're making to the East Timorese, but I do think, look, oppositions can be oppositionist, but it is extremely irresponsible during a delicate stage of negotiations for the Leader of the Opposition, un-briefed, with no idea what state these negotiations are at, just coming out and making these kind of haphazard remarks. LAURIE OAKES: Why do you think he's done it? Why he's abandoned the bipartisanship? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, presumably for political reasons, because he thinks that he can - he can win support from the public for being the man who's more sympathetic to East Timor. But let me make this point: back in 1999 Mr Latham was one of very few Australian politicians who was opposed to the steps Australia took to free East Timor. To give East Timor independence. He thought that this was the wrong policy. So, I mean here we go from Mr Latham yet again saying on the one hand the Government was wrong in what it did in 1999 to help with the independence of East Timor, and this year he's, for political purposes, taking steps which will have a deleterious impact on delicate negotiations over the Timor Sea. Again, he says he wants to restart - recommence the negotiations. But he's only saying that for political purposes, because he doesn't have any idea what stage the negotiations are actually at. LAURIE OAKES: Let me ask you about the - the US Free Trade Agreement. Doug Cameron of the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union this morning has made public a poll of 10 marginal seats showing a fair bit of concern about the FTA. How much influence do you think that will have on the Labor Party's attitude to the Free Trade Agreement? ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, look, it shouldn't have any influence on the Labor Party's attitude. You can't - you can't just run a country on the basis of the latest poll you do in marginal seats on a particular issue. This is a deal that will have immense positive benefits to Australia in the years ahead. It's an enormously important deal for Australia. The Centre for International Economics estimates it'll be worth about $6 billion to our GDP. It'll create 30,000 jobs. And here we have a situation where Mr Latham is apparently sitting down with Bob Brown of the Greens and having a negotiation over whether this was really - this Free Trade Agreement with the United States should go ahead, or whether instead Labor should collect the preferences of the Greens. This is a much more important issue than just some political gamesmanship, and I think if Mr Latham could show any leadership, he would recognise that the best thing for the Labor Party to do would be to pass this through quickly and get the issue off the agenda. But instead, again, we're seeing, unfortunately, a lot of political gamesmanship over the Free Trade Agreement. LAURIE OAKES: The United Nations wants Australia to send troops to The Sudan to help end the bloodshed there. Are we going to join this coalition of the willing? ALEXANDER DOWNER: There's a good chance that we will send some troops to Sudan. A small number, of course. A very small number. It's something we're considering. We haven't made any final decisions about it, and the appropriate Security Council resolutions for a United Nations force there have yet to be passed through the Security Council, though they're being considered. So we'll just have to wait and see. But we are very concerned about the situation in Sudan, and - look, there are about 1.2 - 1.1 million people who are - have been driven out of their homes in Sudan, in the Dafour region. Enormous human rights problems there. There's a civil war that's been going on for many years. The international community has just turned its back for a very long time. And it's about time the international community was more vigorous in its engagement on this issue. That is happening, and we're prepared to contribute. LAURIE OAKES: The US Congress has passed a resolution saying that what's going on there is genocide. Do you agree with that description? ALEXANDER DOWNER: I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling it genocide, but look, there have been - I can't give you a figure, but an enormous number of people killed. There - of course, as I was just saying - are between 1.1 and 1.2 million people who have been displaced from their homes, who are, as we would say, refugees in the Dafour region, across the border into Chad. And you know, the international community, to be frank, hasn't done a lot about this. Now, we've announced recently $8 million worth of aid. I'm considering whether we provide substantial additional aid, and over and above that there is a question of whether we might provide a small number of troops for a United Nations peace keeping operation there. It would only be a small number if we agreed to do it, but that final decision hasn't been made yet. LAURIE OAKES: Mr Downer, we thank you. ALEXANDER DOWNER: It's a pleasure. LAURIE OAKES: Back to you, Jana. Transcript produced by Media Monitors target-monitor-analyse |
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