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  A Geoffrey Robertson Hypothetical: Australia under attack GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: "Advance Australia where?" asks the Bulletin after 125 years of publishing. They've organised a parliamentary cricket match between the Government and the Opposition. Terribly exciting finish — four to get and the last man in. That's you, Tony Abbott. Natasha Stott Despoja is crouching in slips, Richard Butler sending down the last over. Kim Beazley, you're keeping wicket. They think you're a safe pair of hands. You've missed a few chances. RICHARD BUTLER: Probably quite a few, at the age of 56, behind the stumps. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: First ball wraps Abbott on the pad. Plumb in front. You just heard a snick from his bat first before the ball hit the pad Do you appeal for LBW? KIM BEAZLEY: No, it's cricket. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Yes. That is why you appeal for LBW. KIM BEAZLEY: No, you don't, because you respect the great tradition of the game and you know he's not out. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: But isn't it the job of the Opposition to make the Government look as though it's out even when it's not? KIM BEAZLEY: It's the job of the Opposition to uphold the standards while it does it. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You're appealing, Natasha? NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Absolutely. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So you know he's not out and you know that the umpire, Archbishop Aspinall, is a little deaf — all that organ music. Are you still going to appeal? NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: If it is to get Tony Abbott out, maybe I should rethink this situation. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: This is a very half-hearted appeal, umpire. As you face the next ball, play it confidently to third man. Time for a quick single. But Barnaby Joyce is at the other end, can't make up his mind whether to go or not. TONY ABBOTT: I think it is always better to stay at the crease. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You stay at the crease. The third ball comes down. A faint snick as it goes past. You know you hit it. Do you walk? You know you're out, but the umpire doesn't. TONY ABBOTT: Inspired by Kim Beazley's example, I think I would have to walk. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You would have to walk. They would win the game. Only four to get. Three balls to go. TONY ABBOTT: That's the way it is. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: This is incredible honesty for a cricket match! Dr Mahathir, you've been watching these Australian politicians at play. They seem a terribly honest, decent lot of people. DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: Are you talking about the Australians? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Yes. DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: They are a little bit confused at the moment. They don't know whether they are Asians or Europeans. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Do you want them as part of Asia? DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: No, I don't think it is a part of Asia at all. It is a totally different continent which has drifted into this area. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Kim Hoggard, you're the new CIA's chief of station. That is why you are at the cricket match. What do you make of this game? KIM HOGGARD: I don't understand a thing about it and I don't understand why they haven't taken up baseball yet. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It's a sort of baseball in slow motion. KIM HOGGARD: It is. Very slow. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You get a call from the US Ambassador at the UN — John Bolton. He says to you, "Kim, what people don't realise yet is that Kofi Annan has to retire, and it's going to be Asia's turn." KIM HOGGARD: Well, there would be several Australians you could bear in mind, definitely. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Who? KIM HOGGARD: Gareth Evans. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Gareth who? KIM HOGGARD: Gareth Evans, who I'm sure would be very interested in the job. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: I've never heard of Gareth Evans. KIM HOGGARD: Well, he's no longer around. Mr Butler might be interested. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You could have a word with him and see whether he might be the sort of secretary-general who would support John Bolton's policy? KIM HOGGARD: Well, Mr Butler. RICHARD BUTLER: Oh, well, that's very ... KIM HOGGARD: How do you feel? RICHARD BUTLER: That is incredibly generous of you. There was a moment in the past when my name was mentioned, but much more importantly... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It's been mentioned quite a lot. RICHARD BUTLER: Gareth Evans's name was mentioned. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Is he likely, do you think, to do John Bolton's bidding, were he made secretary-general? KIM HOGGARD: Knowing Mr Butler's policies of the past, and Mr Bolton's, I don't think they would be seeing eye to eye. RICHARD BUTLER: I can confirm that. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It's time for the banquet. There's a royal toast to be delivered. Richard Butler, you've had some recent vice-regal experience. RICHARD BUTLER: I was the Queen of Tasmania, yes. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The Queen has done a Bob Carr. She's announced her resignation. She's been replaced by Charles III and Queen Camilla. RICHARD BUTLER: Until the Australian people decide to be a republic, we're a monarchy. I hope they'll change their minds soon. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: But he would cease to be King of England if he became a Catholic and he would cease to be King of Australia. Does it strike you, Tony Abbott, as unattractive that the King of Australia, the head of Australia, ceases that position once they are a Catholic, or is that just part of the rich Anglo heritage? TONY ABBOTT: It's a part of our history. Our history simply is we can't change it. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It's a part of our rich heritage from the 17th century, when Catholic suicide bombers, like Guy Fawkes, terrified London. TONY ABBOTT: Well, um, yes. We all have a rich past, don't we? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Does it strike you as odd, Brian Houston, that if Charles III were to become a Pentecostalist he would lose his kingdom? BRIAN HOUSTON: He would be welcome to become a Pentecostalist, of course. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You're here tonight because you've been appointed special adviser to Mr Downer, on karaoke. What would you teach Mr Downer to sing? BRIAN HOUSTON: Well, I probably would focus on my area of specialty. My area of specialty is helping people and representing the life of Christ, and, ah, so ... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Mr Downer could sing 'Onward Christian Soldiers'. BRIAN HOUSTON: If he's full of the life of God, I'm sure he would be ... singing whatever. It would come out of him naturally. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You're going to teach him to sing 'Jesus Wants Me For a Sunbeam'? BRIAN HOUSTON: My problem is I'm not a music teacher. If you heard me sing, I wouldn't be really helping too much. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: But Hillsong would help him with finding songs. Whatever happened to 'Waltzing Matilda', Garry Linnell? That's the song the Bulletin has been promoting for a century. GARRY LINNELL: If you look at the performance of our rugby union team in the last four or five Test matches, I don't think anyone really wants to own that song any more. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Really? It's a great song. There's no religion, no nationalism. It is just a song about a suicide sheep stealer. GARRY LINNELL: True. But it is almost reached that level of kitsch now, I think, and I think it is time to search for something else. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Kitsch? Kim Beazley, isn't that the song you'd sing after an ASEAN dinner? KIM BEAZLEY: What, 'Waltzing Matilda'? On the whole I'd sing 'Waltzing Matilda'. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You're proposing the toast at the dinner tonight, to the future of Australia. If the good fairy could give you one wish for Australia's future, what would it be? KIM BEAZLEY: I would want us to be able to say of ourselves that we were the sort of country that our neighbourhood, and those around the rest of the world, thought it was terribly important to keep secure and a part of the international comity of nations, because the examples it set were so good. TONY ABBOTT: If we could be an inspiration to others and to ourselves, that would be good. If we could be our best selves, that would be good. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: No-one is actually choosing spirituality, Archbishop. ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: If you listen carefully to what Kim and Tony are saying, there are spiritual values at the bottom of a lot of what they say. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: And your task, as Primate of Australia, is trying to get people back to the churches, get Anglicans to come to church. ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: Well, that's part of the task. And it's not an unimportant part of the task. If I can achieve something of that, certainly I will be pleased. But there is more to it than that. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Catriona Rowntree, you get away a lot? You get away today to a paradise island. It's just off the coast of Nirvana, a large country to Australia's north, an Islamic country. This is really 6-star paradise, you see, when you land. What are you going to do first? There is the wind surfing. There is the coral snorkelling. There is the special massage with two Brad Pitt lookalikes. CATRIONA ROWNTREE: Usually, I just check the minibar and check the bathroom. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Right. CATRIONA ROWNTREE: I'm there to do my work so I have to get an understanding of what the people are really like. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Archbishop, you are watching Catriona on Getaway. You see these paradises that she goes to, most people in ordinary jargon, would call heaven or paradise. Do you feel that the church could be a bit more explicit in describing heaven? In the Koran, of course, it is described with great spirituality and sensuality. But what is the Anglican Church's idea of heaven? You give the good news about everlasting life. But to many people it seems like a life that's spent playing bridge with Joh and Flo, or Fred and Elaine. ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: If I had to use an analogy of that sort, I would say it is more like beating the Poms at cricket, than playing bridge with Joh and Flo. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: All through eternity? ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: But heaven is to do with the reign of God. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Wouldn't it get more people back to the church if you described it more like the Koran — you could describe it as a kind of ... death is — if you go to church regularly — is like a Qantas flight to Hayman Island. If you sin, you travel Jetstar. ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: Well, I'm not sure that would do it for me either. Jetstar, or business class in another airline. It's deeper than that. I don't think gimmicks of that sort, the kind of superficial descriptions, are going to do it for people. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Catriona Rowntree, your mobile phone rings. Problem at the airport. Your PA, Narelle Corby, has been arrested with a considerable amount of cannabis in her bag. You have a choice. The customs officer who arrested her is prepared to destroy the evidence for a very large bribe. Otherwise she goes to court, and the sentences in this country are very long. CATRIONA ROWNTREE: Well, I suppose my first piece of advice to her would be not to say anything nor do anything until some legal representation ... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: She wants to bribe a customs officer. CATRIONA ROWNTREE: That never gets you anywhere and it always be found out and you don't want to get the instant karma from that. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It could save a lot of problems. Garry Linnell, you are the producer of Getaway, if the bribe was paid and that would be an end of it. Otherwise, we're going to have Narelle — who's very attractive, so attractive that she's Catriona's body double in the paragliding scenes. GARRY LINNELL: I think we would definitely have to huddle and discuss this. I think there is a case to mount that you would find the money. Which country are we in? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Nirvana. GARRY LINNELL: An unlimited amount of money? Then I think we would go for it — we'd bribe. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Catriona Rowntree — another problem today in paradise. Your cameraman, Alf Smith, who went to lie down with a XXXX, lay down with the servant who brought it. He's over 18. CATRIONA ROWNTREE: Happens all the time! GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Well, you'll know how to deal with it. The police want a bribe not to prosecute him for sodomy. The penalty for sodomy is only five years, but there is 100 strokes of the cane. CATRIONA ROWNTREE: I wouldn't pay the bribe under any circumstances. I might have paid it years ago when we weren't in this particular environment and atmosphere. But these days you just can't get away with it. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The decision is yours, Garry Linnell. Valuable cameraman. An offence that is not an offence under Australian law, an offence that's existence is contrary to our human rights principles. GARRY LINNELL: I think we are all dancing around this little subject about paying bribes. The reality is out there — and I've traveled through some countries where bribes take effect, and they are part of that culture — and I would have to be consistent and say, yes, we would go for it, we'll pay the bribe. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You would want to pay the bribe ... GARRY LINNELL: Yes. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: ... if that were to save your cameraman from a whipping? GARRY LINNELL: Yes. And my conscience would be absolutely clear. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: What about your conscience, Tony Abbott? TONY ABBOTT: I doubt that it would ever be acceptable to pay a bribe to someone to get that person to fail to do his duty. It's not right to bribe the officials of other countries. NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: There goes the whole election strategy during an election campaign. But of course, sodomy is a law like that which we don't acknowledge or recognise in Australia. Of course you would get that man off. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The dynamic John Bolton engineers the new secretary-general of the United Nations to be an Australian who will serve America's interests. Half of Australia swells with pride. Half of Australia sighs with relief as John Howard packs his bags for New York. The Liberal Party go into conclave and out in a puff of smoke is the new PM, Tony Abbott. Your first task is to speak to Dr Mahatir and explain to him why gay Australians do not deserve to be whipped. TONY ABBOTT: Dr Mahathir, good to be talking to you. DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: Yeah. Good to see you. TONY ABBOTT: We have standards in our country which you may not entirely support. I hope you will be prepared to judge this man in accordance with the standards which WE live by, as well as in accordance with your own standards. DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: No, I wouldn't understand it at all, because my understanding is that if you commit a crime in Australia, you are subject to Australian laws. But if you do that in Malaysia, then you have to submit to Malaysian laws. There can be no two ways about it. TONY ABBOTT: And a principle of British justice, something which you would understand in Nirvana, just as we would understand here in Australia, is justice tempered by mercy. And perhaps some mercy ought to be extended in this particular case. DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: No. If I were to extend mercy to an Australian, I would have to do the same for a Malaysian. It would be not be fair to be merciful to white Australians and not to be merciful to brown Malaysians. TONY ABBOTT: Perhaps you should be merciful to brown Malaysians. DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: No, we don't think so. We have agreed on this law. It's been passed by the parliament. And everyone is treated in the same way. No discrimination at all. TONY ABBOTT: I think my first diplomatic venture would be a failure. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Kim Beazley, can you do any better? KIM BEAZLEY: This is a cameraman belonging to an Australian media organisation — do your worst! GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Felicity Hampel, can you perhaps get across to Dr Mahathir the injustice of whipping? JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: One law that Australians respect and that this, they say, is an international norm, is a law that says there shall be no cruel, inhuman or degrading punishment. And we in Australia and many other countries see beating people with a cane as cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment. We think that that should not apply to anybody — not to Australians, not to Malaysians, not to anybody in the world. DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: But Australians did not show respect for international norms when you start throwing illegal immigrants into the sea. So how do you expect us to conform to international standards? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Dr Mahathir is absolutely unmoved by any appeal. Paul McKinnon, you've been doing some investigation about the drug ring that Narelle was involved with. Federal Police establish through an informer that there wasn't just cannabis in the bag, there was a false bottom to it packed with heroin. Would you notify the Nirvanian police of that? PAUL McKINNON: Yes. It is a working circle. If we hide something from them, they're bound to hide something from us. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So you give that information knowing that it will send Narelle Corby to her death by firing squad under Nirvanian law? PAUL McKINNON: Correct. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Is that something that the Opposition would be happy about, Kim Beazley? We'd two take approaches to it. KIM BEAZLEY: The first is I agree with the commissioner. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Death to Australians? KIM BEAZLEY: Once you've established that there is — you have a relationship. The second point — I would regard it as my job as Leader of the Opposition and Tony Abbott's job as PM of Australia to do our level best to plead mitigating circumstances. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Natasha Stott Despoja, is the Labor policy to pass the information on that will secure the death penalty and then plead with the likes of Dr Mahathir not to execute because they've been nice in passing the information on? Is that something the Democrats agree with? NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: I think it is appalling that they would send an Australian, potentially send an Australian citizen to death. TONY ABBOTT: But this person was a heroin trafficker who presumably was happy to sell heroin to the people of Nirvana. But you wouldn't say that publicly, because I think that would really be compromising the life of an Australian citizen. It is not the responsibility of the Australian Government to try to save people from all the consequences of their bad actions. NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Then why do we provide, as we should, legal aid and consular assistance to those Australians who are either detained in overseas prisons or facing the death penalty? It's because our country has made a decision that we do not support the death penalty. TONY ABBOTT: We certainly would make representations on behalf of this person. Don't apply the death penalty in this case. But if in the end our appeals were unsuccessful, that, sadly, would be one of those things. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The appeals are unsuccessful. Narelle is convicted and sentenced by firing squad. Brian Houston, the Hillsong Church does visits to prisons. You visit prisons in Villawood and so forth. BRIAN HOUSTON: We do too. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Would you do a prison visit to poor Narelle Corby, who is about to face the death penalty? BRIAN HOUSTON: Well, if that was an opportunity, I think it would be wonderful to have the opportunity. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Well, you go to Nirvana, you hire a motor bike and off you go to the prison. You are the last person who gets to visit her before her execution. She is being executed tomorrow. You sing songs of the Hillsong Church — 'Jesus is My Superhero' and 'Money Makes the World go Around'. And you get very moved by her because she's going to die tomorrow. And she says to you, "There's one thing I would like you to do. Would you just pass a message on to my brother, just a message saying 'I'm coming over at 8:25, the third palm tree like we discussed. Be there'. Simple message. You can remember that. BRIAN HOUSTON: So I don't know exactly what is happening at this palm tree. I am just passing a message on? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You are passing the message on that she is coming over the prison wall at 8:25 and that he's to be at the palm tree where they arranged the meeting. You're assisting her to escape. BRIAN HOUSTON: Well, I would really have to think about the moral issues there. But I would welcome the opportunity to speak to her personally and speak to her brother. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Would you take the opportunity to pass the message on to her brother to assist her to escape? BRIAN HOUSTON: If nobody else's life was in danger, if there was, I think I would be more than happy to talk to her brother. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Only your life. BRIAN HOUSTON: And just say, "This is what your sister asked me to tell you." All I've done is pass on a message. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Pass the message on. Can he borrow your motorbike between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock tonight? BRIAN HOUSTON: Not to carry drugs, if that's what you are implying. But if he wanted to ... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: He wants to borrow your motorbike between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock. You've passed the message on that she's coming over the wall at 8:25. BRIAN HOUSTON: Well, I'm a generous person. I like to see people enjoy motorbike riding. I think I would be more than happy just to focus on maybe the message. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Would you give her the message? You might lend the motorbike. BRIAN HOUSTON: I feel that this motorbike is important to you. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It might be important to her. BRIAN HOUSTON: I would like to help Narelle but I don't think I'm going to get too implicitly involved in breaking the law to help. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Just a little bit involved? BRIAN HOUSTON: No, no. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Archbishop, you're visiting her. She says to you, "You're my last visitor. Will you pass this message on. It's elliptical. I'm coming over at 8:25, the third palm tree, like we discussed. Be there." ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: I don't think I would, no. I think ... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: She's a member of your church. You can't afford to lose many more. BRIAN HOUSTON: All you're doing is giving a message. ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: No. I wouldn't pass the message on. I think to intervene in that way in the legal system of the country, however much I disagree with the legal system, I think it would be a wrong thing to do. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You might be saving her life. ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: Yes, I understand that. I would certainly participate in pleas for her life and so on but I think to take that step would be wrong. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Catriona Rowntree, you're her last visitor. She's been a close friend. You've traveled to many places. She's shared her tampons, she's lent you her moustache bleach. Are you going to pass the message on? CATRIONA ROWNTREE: I think that in that moment, if that was me, I just, I think I would follow my heart and I would do my best to help my friend. I know that I said before I would — I respect the law of each particular country that we go to, but in that moment, with her looking me in the face, asked such a simple gesture, I think I would do it. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It's 8:30, Warren Reed, in the Australian compound in Nirvana. A motorbike pulls up. Out jumps Narelle Corby. Will you give her asylum? She's escaped from the prison. WARREN REED: Yes, I would. I would do it for two reasons. One would be that she had been able to manipulate the system because it was susceptible to manipulation. I would see that as not a great moral success but a practical one in that context. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: One way or another this is going to come to you, Prime Minister. TONY ABBOTT: It seems to me that an offence has been committed and regrettably but necessarily and rightly we would have to hand her over. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So you would really hand over an Australian to be shot by a firing squad? TONY ABBOTT: But this is someone who committed a serious offence who then escaped from lawful custody. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: There is an outrage throughout Australia that we're handing this woman over to be shot. Are you leading it, Kim Beazley? KIM BEAZLEY: Certainly not. Look, your job as Prime Minister of this country is to stand up public opinion if that's where public opinion takes you on this occasion. I won't, as Leader of the Opposition, be undermining you. But this is not something that we're engaged in. We don't spring drug dealers whether or not we think they're properly convicted. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The drug dealer has sprung herself. NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: I thought we had a basic principle in international law and in Australian law which is respect for the dignity of human life. That means whether or not we respect other laws in other countries there are some laws we find abominable and capital punishment is one that we find abominable. For a leader of the government and a leader of the opposition, you do not sacrifice an Australian life when you are able to provide. You go around springing people from jail. You're not springing someone from jail. She's seeking asylum. Send in the SAS to bust these drug dealers out. You save her life. You save her life. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: While you're on your feet arguing, Narelle Corby is in the embassy. Dr Mahathir, what do you say to the Australians who want her to be set free? DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: Well, at that very moment in Australia a terrorist threw a bomb into the market and killed 1,000 people and then escaped and seek refuge in the Nirvana embassy. And you want the terrorist to be handed over to you. And the Nirvana embassy says no, we cannot release this man to you, even though we know he's guilty. He is a good Muslim. He just did it because he felt like doing it. Well, what do you think about that? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So the Nirvanian embassy might refuse to hand over a man who had killed 1,000 people? DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: Yes. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It is your birthday tomorrow and there is a traditional amnesty that you give on your birthday. Would you think of giving it to this wretched woman to save a diplomatic problem? DR MAHATHIR MOHAMAD: Maybe some horse trading can be carried out — we can release the terrorists provided you hand over Corby for us to execute. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So you hand over for execution? TONY ABBOTT: Well, we would be very unhappy about the fact that that was the penalty for her crime in Nirvana, but we would ... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You would not give her asylum? TONY ABBOTT: I would be almost certain that we would not play cops and robbers, cowboys and Indians on the country — soil of another country. JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: Why wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity for Australia to negotiate a prisoner exchange program so that Australian prisoners held in Nirvana were able to be returned to Australia to serve their sentences here and, more importantly, and particularly to have death sentences commuted to life imprisonment? TONY ABBOTT: If that was possible, sure. JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: But why not think creatively and use the opportunity, Mr Abbott? You're our PM, you're supposed to have vision. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Narelle Corby is executed, her right to life forfeited. A lot of young Muslims are upset at what they see around them — the porn shops, the abortion parlours, the brothels, the gay bars. They want to get back to more fundamentalist values. An organisation — the Allah Akhbar Association, AAA we'll call it. They invite a very learned preacher from Algeria, Dr Jekyll. He speaks very forcibly about the wrongfulness of suicide bombing in London and in Bali because of the indiscriminate targets. He speaks very forcibly about the rightness of suicide bombing in Israel. And he tells the young people that if they want to be martyrs, if they join Hamas and are involved in suicide bombing in Israel they will go to Paradise. It is having an effect on your daughter. She's 24. NADA ROUDE: I think I would be quite disturbed. I would be telling her the essence of jihad as an inner struggle that she could perhaps do a lot more good in promoting the cause through education, engagement, interaction to try to raise awareness of the problems, the struggles of people that perhaps are being persecuted and oppressed. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: But she says, "Mum, the Palestinians are persecuted in the press. The World Court has held that the occupation of the West Bank is unlawful. Suicide bombing is the only way that we can respond." NADA ROUDE: And I would say that that is not the way to respond. I would say that Islamically the sanctity of life is extremely important and that we all have a responsibility to protect it in any way. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: She says, "I've heard that, Mum, from all of Mr Howard's favourite Muslims. I believe that Dr Jekyll is talking the revealed truth that this is a genuine jihad situation and I'm going to volunteer for Hamas, and she goes out the door." NADA ROUDE: How old is my daughter again? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: 24. A bit difficult, isn't it? NADA ROUDE: It is extremely difficult. I think I have a lot of problems with the taking of life and anyone else for that matter. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You do but she doesn't, having heard Dr Jekyll. NADA ROUDE: That is very important. For me, I'm operating from within that context. At the moment she has indicated that she wants to join the struggle. So she hasn't actually specified that she wants to blow herself up and others. Is that right? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Uh-huh. She wants to join Hamas. She hopes they'll take her and train her as a suicide bomber. NADA ROUDE: I probably would still feel that I'm reluctant to engage in that kind of, I guess, ignoring some of the basic rights that she should be enjoying. So to have her locked up for seven days ... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Renewable. NADA ROUDE: On an ongoing renewable basis I think would be something that I would be extremely concerned about. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: That is better than having her blow herself up along with a lot of Jewish people. NADA ROUDE: Yes. I would still be working on trying to deal with her and engaging and discussing the solution. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: If that fails, would you accept that she could be in effect interned. NADA ROUDE: I would probably still have a lot of problems with that, yes. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: PM, is Dr Jekyll someone we should have in Australia? TONY ABBOTT: It's certainly not a teaching that we would want anyone to hear. But if we really did think that someone was going to engage in a terrorist act, I think we ought to be able to keep them in detention. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The year 2007 is going to be identified by future historians as an important year for Australia, Kim Beazley. Is it not? KIM BEAZLEY: Well, I hope so. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You've got the workers up in arms. You have no refugee boats on the horizon. People are getting crossed lines because Telstra has been sold to Rupert Murdoch. When you are elected you will renationalise, I suppose, buy back the farm? KIM BEAZLEY: We would anticipate that not all of it would have been sold by then. We would persist in public ownership with what was remaining. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: What else can we expect from the Beazley Government — pulling the troops out of Iraq? KIM BEAZLEY: Well, I would be very surprised if they are there. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: They certainly are. After Saddam Hussein was hanged, the civil war erupted. KIM BEAZLEY: Well, that is a quagmire and that is where we ought not be. Nor ought it be the focus of the struggle with international terror. So I would sit down with our allies and our friends in Iraq and work out an orderly withdrawal of Australian forces, yes. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You get a call from President Bush, President Jeb Bush. He says, "Kim, we want Australia's help. There's an island of 25 million people, very religious, very democratic. My friend John Bolton says that they're not allowed to be members of the United Nations. We feel very annoyed about that. And on behalf of the people of Taiwan, we'd like Australia to move their admission to the United Nations." KIM BEAZLEY: I would move heaven and earth to persuade him otherwise because what he would be launching would be a major war that would probably go nuclear and which would see the death of very large numbers of Taiwanese and not a few Americans. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: All he wants is for Australia to move the admission of Taiwan to the UN. KIM BEAZLEY: Immediately several thousand missiles would be launched by the Chinese against those in Taiwan. There would be a very high possibility that there would soon be an exchange of nuclear weapons. As the Australian PM, I would go immediately to Washington. He ought to change his mind forthwith and we would not be in it. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: I suppose, Kim Hoggard, China would be so upset they would probably end trade with Australia. We wouldn't go to war. But America would be upset if we didn't support them. They might not deliver on the ANZUS Treaty. KIM HOGGARD: They might not. Whatever the US does, it will be done with the US national security interests at heart. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So if it is not in the US interests to support ANZUS to save Australia, they won't? KIM HOGGARD: They won't. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: And the ANZUS Treaty is really not worth the paper it's written on? KIM HOGGARD: Nothing on paper is worth what it is written on. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: If the US Government is not worth the paper it's written on. Is that your experience, Richard Butler? You're back at the UN as Australian ambassador? RICHARD BUTLER: Sadly, I couldn't have said it better myself. The Americans will judge a given security conflict on its merits on the day and they will follow their interests. KIM HOGGARD: They will go about getting out of the treaty, though, in the nicest way as possible. Buddy or a mate. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Or give a lot of awards to Australian PMs. KIM HOGGARD: That's right. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: They've just given him the Woodrow Wilson award. Let's see what other things we can expect from the Beazley Government. I suppose there will be a referendum on a republic? KIM BEAZLEY: Yes, there would be that. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You have a Governor-General to appoint in the interim. It is a bit tricky because Gough is too old and Mark Latham is still writing fiction. Bob Carr is a history professor in Tennessee. Butler has had some vice-regal experience. Governor-General? RICHARD BUTLER: Such a success. KIM BEAZLEY: I would probably appoint Fiona Stanley. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Tony Abbott, you're doing the John Howard Memorial Jog around Kirribilli. You see someone who looks like a Muslim videoing the British Consulate. Would you think of ringing the National Security Hotline? TONY ABBOTT: I don't know that I would be in any position to make those sorts of judgments. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Well, you jog around Kirribilli House and five minutes later he is still videoing the British Consulate. Would you think of ringing the security hotline? TONY ABBOTT: Maybe. I don't know. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Do you know the number of the security hotline? TONY ABBOTT: I could probably ring 12456 and ask them for it. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Garry Linnell will tell you the number of the security hotline. You meet him jogging around the other way. He has it on his fridge. GARRY LINNELL: I have indeed. It starts with 1800. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: And how does it go on after that? GARRY LINNELL: It's still on the fridge. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Catriona Rowntree, you're at the chemist nearby. You're buying some moustache remover. You notice the woman ahead of you in the queue who is wearing a hijab is buying some hydrogen peroxide. It could be for gum problems. Could be for ... CATRIONA ROWNTREE: Her moustache. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Absolutely. It could be for a bomb. Do you ring the security hotline? She's bought four bottles. CATRIONA ROWNTREE: No, I doubt I would. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: How many bottles of hydrogen peroxide would she have to buy before you would ring the security hotline? CATRIONA ROWNTREE: Possibly 10. Possibly 10. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: And you know the number? CATRIONA ROWNTREE: Oh, I'm definitely 12456 all the time so it wouldn't be too difficult to obtain. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Do you know the number of the National Security Hotline? BRIAN HOUSTON: No, I don't know the number of the National Security Hotline. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Do you know the number of the national security hotline? RICHARD BUTLER: No. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Do you know the number of the National Security Hotline? Do you? NATASHA STOTT DESPOJA: Sent the fridge magnet back to Howard. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Australia has spent millions and millions advertising the security hotline. No-one knows the number. PAUL McKINNON: How long does it take? It is in the front of every phone book. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Do you know it? PAUL McKINNON: No. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: There is, unfortunately, a terrorist attack on a ferry in Sydney Harbour. A suicide bomber blew himself up with six casualties on the ferry — three people drowned trying to swim to shore. Garry Linnell at Sunday program and the Bulletin, very keen, I suppose, to find out details of this AAA group that was responsible for the suicide bomb. GARRY LINNELL: Absolutely. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Trying to find out what is behind them, who is behind them. Abu Hussein is meant to be the leader. He has gone underground. But you have one contact, one very confidential source who is close to him. Would you offer this source absolute confidentiality? GARRY LINNELL: Can I go back to my job on Getaway? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: No. You've been promoted. GARRY LINNELL: The question of confidential sources is a very difficult one in this circumstance I think we would perhaps offer them confidentiality. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Your source says I can get you pictures, I can get you a video of Abu Hussein, this man who is said to be Bin Laden's vicar in Australia. GARRY LINNELL: Very interested. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Worth meeting the source? GARRY LINNELL: Absolutely. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: In a carpark under Sydney Opera House late at night? GARRY LINNELL: Yes. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You get the video. It's an extraordinary picture of this man speaking in a strong Australian accent against a straight background cradling an AK-47 saying, "Our attacks will continue if he permits the Pope, the leader of one billion infidels, to come to Australia for World Youth Day. All good Muslims will ensure that he doesn't leave Australia alive." Pretty big story. GARRY LINNELL: A very good story. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: For your Sunday program. It's Friday. Are you going to put it out? GARRY LINNELL: I think we would run with it, but I think we would make a courtesy call to the PM's office. KIM BEAZLEY: I would appreciate it if you would show the video now to our intelligence officials and Federal Police. And we would be grateful too if you could give us a description as to how you came by it and the people who you contacted in doing that. We would also be very grateful if you held it for a while. GARRY LINNELL: I think I'm ready to make a deal. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It's Friday. Your program goes out on Sunday without the film. On Sunday night this very film goes out on Al-Jazeera and the transcript is in all the papers. GARRY LINNELL: I've been scooped. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: By everyone. GARRY LINNELL: And I've been sacked. I think I'm on to my third job. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Well, I would stay around if I were you because Warren Reed, you have these powers to take in for interrogation people who have — are not terrorist suspects themselves but who may have information useful. Let's take him into custody. You can do that, seven days. Interesting thing — he has to answer your questions or he goes to jail. GARRY LINNELL: Can I have a lawyer? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Yes. GARRY LINNELL: Can I get some legal advice? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Not until after you leave custody, so you don't get a lawyer. What you get, you get a judge, who decides whether to issue the warrant. JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: That's right. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: What do you decide? He's obviously got information of use in combating terrorism. And most other countries — in Europe, America and Britain — you would be balancing the importance of getting the information out of him with the importance of freedom of speech and enabling journalists to carry out their trade with confidential sources. But in this country you don't have a bill of rights. JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: No, we don't. And the act doesn't suggest that that balancing of freedom of speech is something that the judge has to take into account. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: What is your decision? Does Garry Linnell get taken in for seven days to be interrogated about his source? The ASIO Act ... JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: Yes, the Act certainly ... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: This is exactly what it is for. A lot of journalists have information that is useful in dealing with terrorists and ASIO can now get from them, unless they stand up for some principle or other and go to prison, can now get from them all their information. JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: Well, as a judge was sworn to do her duty according to law and who believes in the rule of law, I would have to grant the warrant. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: He's all yours. PAUL McKINNON: Well, I would show Garry the warrant. GARRY LINNELL: I've been scooped, sacked and now I'm being interrogated. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You are, compulsorily. What is the punishment if he doesn't answer the question? JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: Five years in imprisonment, maximum. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: What is the punishment if he gives a false answer? JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: Five years. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Ask him the question. PAUL McKINNON: Garry, I have this warrant. Can we just be frank and get down to business really quickly in about two or three minutes. Otherwise we'll have to bring the weight of this down upon you. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You alone know the name of your source. Who took great risks to bring you that information and give you other information. It's Nada Roude's daughter. GARRY LINNELL: Do I get to make one phone call? PAUL McKINNON: In my presence you could. Yes, if you tell me what the number is and what the nature of the call is you can go ahead and make it, but quickly. GARRY LINNELL: That's unfair. I would like to make a private telephone call. You may have a deal and you may not. But allow me to ring the source. PAUL McKINNON: OK. I trust you enough to do that in another room. But quickly. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The source has been sensible enough not to give you her telephone number. GARRY LINNELL: I would say — what has happened to Australia when a journalist carrying out their job to inform the public is actually being jailed for five years? TONY ABBOTT: But the higher job is to protect the national interest when life is at stake. GARRY LINNELL: We've already cooperated with the government. We held the story which provided all the information that we possibly can. You wouldn't have this video if it wasn't for our confidential source. JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: Didn't the journalists complain about the law at the time it was being put before Parliament, discussed, voted upon. It would have been a good time for it to be raised by the journalists and put out more broadly in the public domain. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: But the bottom line is you have to decide — will you expose Nada Roude's daughter as your source? She will be taken in for questioning. You don't know how dangerous that's going to be for her. GARRY LINNELL: I don't know that. I also think it sends a signal to those other people, both in the realms of government, in bureaucracies everywhere, that if they ever want to offer up something that is being suppressed and is in the public interest, they won't be confident in firstly coming to me or my program or my magazine or to any other journalist for that matter. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So you refuse to answer? GARRY LINNELL: Yes. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Are you relieved, Nada, that some journalists behave like that? NADA ROUDE: Um, the question I think that is a dilemma is when is it our responsibility to declare if the nation's security is at risk? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So you wouldn't be upset if he exposed your daughter? NADA ROUDE: Oh, absolutely I would be upset. But the issue remains that it is a fine line between deciding which is for the greater good. Is it the welfare of my daughter or the welfare of the bigger nation and the security of the whole people? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: And if it is for the bigger nation, you would sacrifice your daughter? NADA ROUDE: Well, if there is going to be a crime committed against humanity or against a larger number of people, I would be saying this is where my priority lies. I know it is my daughter and I love her. But if there is a risk that she is going to put the whole community in some kind of risk, then I would have to weigh up that. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Ladies and gentlemen, the Pope's visit for World Youth Day is going to be a security nightmare. He's going to begin the journey in the pope mobile at Kirribilli House. He'll cross the Harbour Bridge. He'll go through the CBD to the stadium, up Parramatta Road. A security nightmare, Paul McKinnon, but you've done it before. You did the Olympics. PAUL McKINNON: Papal visits are being managed extraordinarily well everywhere His Eminence went. It would be no different here in Australia. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You get a call, Kim Hoggard, from the CIA. They are a bit worried. They've had some disturbing intelligence from the latest batch of detainees at Guantanamo Bay to the effect that al-Qa'ida's top assassin, the guy they call the Jihad Jackal, left for Sydney last month. His mission — to kill the Pope. KIM HOGGARD: If they're looking for additional assistance, either from the interrogation point of view or any specialists that the US could supply to assist them... GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The PM is very security conscious and obviously very worried about the lack of intelligence that is coming out of these new detention powers. Your people can teach them some of the techniques that have worked at Guantanamo Bay. Standing all day for interrogation, for example. Blindfolding them. Putting them in solitary confinement. KIM HOGGARD: I'm not sure that I would be prepared to advise them to use the same methods that were unfortunately used at Guantanamo Bay. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: They're still being used. KIM HOGGARD: I don't think I would be able to sell that to the Australian Government. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Well, the Australian police, Paul McKinnon, are very humane to those they detain. They offer them cups of tea and cigarettes, mild. You're not getting any intelligence. The Pope is about to visit. It's very serious. There have been the suicide bombs on the ferry. You're no closer to the AAA. You might consider some of these interrogation techniques. PAUL McKINNON: Not likely. KIM BEAZLEY: Look, if you've seen what has happened in relation to Abu Ghraib, it's been a massive propaganda victory for the most evil people in Bin Laden's death cult. We don't actually want to feed our enemies. PAUL McKINNON: We would use what works. What we know to work. That is ASIO entering particular communities, interviewing individuals, encouraging them to report things that are suspicious. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You get an interesting submission from the Hillsong Church. Allow Brian Houston to visit them for perhaps four hours a day and attempt to convert them. And if they were converted, they would then, of course, spill the beans. PAUL MCKINNON: If I had to learn the songs, I think I would confess. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You still haven't found the Jihad Jackal. He's in town. He's somewhere along the motorcade. Hussein, the guy on the video, has prepared the sniper's nest. It's really important that you find this man, isn't it? PAUL McKINNON: Absolutely. The plan is to execute the Pope. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The mission that we believe he is on is to kill the Pope, to assassinate the Pope. He is somewhere hidden along the lines. PAUL McKINNON: We've fortified the Pope's protection to the optimum. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: The Pope is a man of the people, so it's important that you find his hiding place. Whatever ammunition he has got, you have to find out where he is. PAUL McKINNON: We would do what we've done in the past. At every conceivable sniper position we deploy law enforcement officers to. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You have your officers obviously along the route. You have helicopters and police marksmen in helicopters. The Popemobile is drawn up outside Kirribilli House. PM, the Pope smiles beatifically at you and says, "There is a spare seat. Do you want to accompany me?" KIM BEAZLEY: I would have to say that if the Pope invited me to ride in this crowd, my first advice to him would be, "Though I think I am a good Prime Minister, I think that it would be politically most unwise for you to have the Prime Minister stand alongside you. But, if, however, you insist, I will be there." GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: There are five million Catholic votes. KIM BEAZLEY: Exactly. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Five million Catholic voters. They'll see you alongside the Pope. Whatever hits the Popemobile will hit you as well. KIM BEAZLEY: I know a fair bit about the SAS, the Australian Federal Police and ASIO, and I would take the punt. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You would take the punt. Off you go over the Harbour Bridge. You can see the Blackhawk helicopters hovering above. You can see the Collins class submarines in the harbour. Confidence remains. Just at this moment, Paul McKinnon, your team knocks down a basement door in Redfern and arrests Hussein. They follow procedures. They take him to the nearest police station, offer him tea and cigarettes, ask him where The Jackal is hiding. He smiles at them, looks at his watch and doesn't answer. What do you do? PAUL McKINNON: Well, the formal options would be put him before the State Crime Commission with a reference on counterterrorism and apply coercive power. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Coercive options are limited, aren't they? You can't physically ... PAUL McKINNON: You can't no, no. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: … touch him. Sergeant Doberman has been reading the Mossad manuals. He says, "Boss, look, sometimes if you shake them really hard, that's how Mossad got confessions out of the suicide bombers in Palestine." PAUL McKINNON: Then I would respond by saying, "Stand on the other side of that barred door and get the feeling of what it is to look from the outside — from the inside out. It will give you some excuse not to follow this path." GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Doberman says, "I've read somewhere that Arab men can't stand having a dog growling at their genitals. We could strip Hussein. I could get Rover, the Alsation. Hasn't been fed today. This might make him talk." PAUL McKINNON: It could do. But there are some police at Mt Druitt that tell you this is not a wise course either. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Well, it may not be a wise course. But in an emergency situation, the suspect, Hussein, whenever asked, simply looks at his watch and laughs and says, "Soon the leader of one billion infidels will be gone to hell." Isn't it necessary to deploy special measures? PAUL McKINNON: It wouldn't matter what the nature of the dilemma is. Torture is not an option. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You take a phone call from Kim Hoggard. You leave the room. When you come back, Sergeant Doberman is full of smiles. He says, "Boss, we've found out where he is. He is on the fifth floor of the old book depository in Parramatta Road." Two minutes before the Pope and the Prime Minister pass. What order do you give? PAUL McKINNON: We have to act upon it, irrespective — we're talking about saving the Pope, so you would have to act upon it. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: So you have two minutes. One minute. PAUL McKINNON: You're off. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You get a call to a helicopter. They report that there's a man of Middle Eastern appearance leaning out of a window clutching a gun or some kind of implement. What do you do? PAUL McKINNON: Take him out. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: How do you take him out? PAUL McKINNON: With sniper fire. It would be very clinical. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: He won't suffer much? PAUL McKINNON: No. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You take him out with sniper fire. The Popemobile with the Pope and the Prime Minister proceed to the mass mass at the Olympic stadium. You are getting a lot of congratulations. They are coming in around the world. PAUL McKINNON: This is leading to something bad, I can tell. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: You've just noticed a few flecks of blood on Rover's teeth. Hussein is taken to hospital with 10 stitches in the thigh but he will be available to stand trial. Sergeant Doberman is a hero, Australian of the Year for the Bulletin, is he not, Garry Linnell, the man who saved the life of the Pope, saved the life of the Prime Minister? GARRY LINNELL: I would have thought so. He is a hero, isn't he, Brian Houston? BRIAN HOUSTON: Congratulations. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Congratulations to Sergeant Doberman for getting the information that led to the assassination of the Jackal and the saving of the life of the Pope? BRIAN HOUSTON: Exactly, yeah. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: He is not a Pentecostalist, he's — a pope — but nonetheless it is a great thing to have saved his life. BRIAN HOUSTON: A wonderful thing to have saved his life. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: A hero, Archbishop? ARCHBISHOP PHILLIP ASPINALL: He committed a very serious criminal act, I think, against another individual who may or may not have had information. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: How does it come down for you? Is Sergeant Doberman a hero? TONY ABBOTT: Well, the end doesn't justify the means. So he is not a hero. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: He is not a hero. A billion Catholics around the world certainly think he is a hero. TONY ABBOTT: Well, I think their leader would say that the end doesn't justify the means. JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: I agree with Tony Abbott. The end does not justify the means. To sanction that type of behaviour diminishes respect for the rule of law. If we say that individuals — police officers, interrogators, ASIO operatives or private citizens — can take the law into their own hands and we lose those checks and balances that a rule-of-law society has, we're stepping along the same path of the terrorists, who take the law into their own hands do. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It would have been far better if the Prime Minister and the Pope had been killed? JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: It would have — both Kim Beazley and Tony Abbott spoke earlier about their aspirations for the country. It's not good that the Prime Minister and the Pope are killed but it's worse that we as a community, as a rule-of-law community, sanction extrajudicial killing, sanction any type of killing. You can't have torture. You can't have people taking the law into their own hands. Even if they achieve what seems to be a very good end, it is too high a price. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: It is 24 hours before the body is examined by an appalled Turkish family whose husband was cleaning the fifth floor of the book depository. Lent out with the broom, was shot through the head. The information was given by Hussein screaming as the dog lunged at him. It was the first address that came into his mind. The jihadic Jackal was a figment of the imagination of a detainee at Guantanamo Bay who had been held all day standing blindfolded and wanted to stop. What happens now to Sergeant Doberman? Kim Beazley? KIM BEAZLEY: He would be prosecuted whether that gentleman leaning out of the fifth floor had a broomstick or a rifle. He would be prosecuted either way. If it was a rifle, the chances are that the conclusion of the prosecution would be a minimal sentence or the person's release. If it was a broomstick, the probability for the unfortunate Sergeant Doberman was that he would spend some time in jail. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Isn't that a decision for the jury to make, Judge Hampel, on a manslaughter charge against Paul McKinnon? JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: Paul wouldn't be up for a manslaughter charge because he had information that was reasonably available and reliable at the time and had a duty to act in order to protect. However, what it demonstrates is the unreliability of information extracted under torture. That information obtained by torturing people or by subjecting them to inhumane treatment is often information that is provided to assist the torturers, to give them what the person interrogated thinks they need to know. That is why the Guantanamo Bay suspect made up the story about the Jihad Jackal in the first place, I suspect. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Garry Linnell, Sergeant Doberman was going to be your Australian of the Year last night. Do you change the cover today? JUDGE FELICITY HAMPEL: No, his job. GARRY LINNELL: I think he gets the top bunk in the cell and I'm on the bottom bunk. I think we're pulping pretty quickly. IRFAN YUSUF: What are our perceptions of what a terrorist is? Must a terrorist be someone who has a Middle Eastern look? What does it mean to have a Middle Eastern look? I know people from Lebanon who have red hair and green eyes. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Many Islamists look like David Hicks. IRFAN YUSUF: So what does it mean to say that someone has a Middle Eastern appearance? And of what relevance is that appearance or alleged appearance to whether that person may or may not be a terror suspect? GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Because there would be massive damages payable, Tony Abbott, to this poor Turkish family? TONY ABBOTT: No doubt. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: One final question. Catriona Rowntree, what should happen to Rover? CATRIONA ROWNTREE: Well, unfortunately, Rover was simply following orders. I would just give the dog a bone. GEOFFREY ROBERTSON: Well, ladies and gentlemen, there are two different endings — the happy ending and an unhappy one. I'll leave you to decide which is which. Thank you all. Click here for a printer-friendly version. |
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